[K] What are we talking about today? Anti-Black racism. Right? [N] Yes. Correct. [K] That's our topic that we decided on. [N] Yeah. In a very broad sense, I guess. In a very broad sense. Because, I mean, there's so much to… I wouldn't… [K] Yeah, you could fill many podcast episodes with this topic. It's just the one we're gonna start digging into a little bit today. [N] Well, yeah. [K] I was walking downtown during the workday sometime this week. When was that? Monday? Tuesday? It was Tuesday, I think. [N] Was it really? [K] Yeah. I don't know. The day doesn't really matter. This could happen any day in Iowa City, right? It happens a lot, probably, that we don't, you know, happen across. I'm walking to pick up some groceries and I'm coming back through the ped mall. There were these guys, these black guys singing with a speaker on the ped mall. Just having a good time, you know, making some music. There were some people gathered around, like, listening. [N] Yeah. Didn’t you say people were just having a good time around. Like, just people watching. [K] Yeah there were some people around just sitting on benches and stuff, and… [N] Just being in community. [K] Being in community. Yeah. But as I'm walking back from the co-op, I see a police car parked on the block. And then after I pass the police car, I see that the police are, of course, predictably, harassing these black guys making music on the ped mall. [N] Right. [K] And so I just stood around. The cops, I gleaned that the cops had told them that they needed a permit, and since they didn't have a permit, they had to leave. And they kind of argued for a bit, but the guys were packing up their stuff. It was clear that they intended to leave. The cops didn't escalate it beyond that point, really. They left when the guys were packed up and leaving. But. Yeah, it was just, it was racism. Like, the cops enforce laws that are racist and have racist outcomes. [N] Well, yeah, [K] And that's just the fact of the matter. [N] I mean, policing is racist. [K] Yes. [N] So there's no way to, you know, get around that, especially in the United States. But, I mean, you also like, heard the cops say that someone had called to complain. [K] Yes. [N] Like, there was a complaint. [K] One of the guys who was singing was like, we had a different cop, a different time tell us that we needed a permit, but that if nobody complained, he was just going to let it go. And one of the cops was like, well, somebody complained, so you need to go. And then they were talking about like, it's the principle of it, like they shouldn't need a permit for this. And I fundamentally agree with that. Like, what is the ped mall, if not a place for human beings in this urban area to be in community with each other and meet and like, do things that humans have been doing together since forever. [N] Yeah! [K] Making music. [N] I mean, who fucking cares? I sure as shit don't fucking care if people are just having a good time. I actually would love to just see that, people just being in community, having a good time, like expressing joy, doing something they love. [K] Made my walk to the co-op a lot brighter. [N] Right, yeah. [K] Until I was coming back. [N] Yeah. [K] And then the cops… the cops are the thing that fucked it up. [N] Yeah, but because it's black people and like, the white downtown district is like, ‘oh, don't play loud music while I'm working down here.’ They're gonna be like, ‘oh, I'm uncomfortable, and I'm gonna call the cops and make them fucking get out of my ped mall’ or some shit. [K] I love this. I love this impression that you're doing. I don't know for sure who called the cops. That was just an example of a type of person. [N] Yeah, I don't know who called the cops, but I can think about who works downtown and who has offices downtown and the businesses that are downtown like… you know? [K] Yeah. Because it's, I mean, it's so tied up with capitalism, right? Like, it's about interrupting business. You're interrupting transactions, people buying and selling things. You're gumming up the works, which means you're gumming up our profits. [N] Yeah. [K] And it's… I mean, it's not like that's… those are the thoughts that are running through everyone's heads, but functionally, the way they behave, it's upholding that system. [N] Yeah. Right. Like, I'm sure that's not what anyone would say was their intention behind complaining. Right? [K] Yeah, but that's what you're doing. [N] But that's what you're doing, right? And there's like… I don't know. The birds are going crazy right now though. [K] The birds are a bit distracting. I want to do a whole episode on birds, but I'm not going to get into it now. That's out of scope. [N] Yeah. And the birding… [K] Yeah. I want to talk about birding. [N] Birding is like, colonialism. [K] Colonial as fuck. [N] Yeah. Anyway, anyway, anyway, it's fucking crazy [K] Saving that for another time. [N] But we love birds. [K] Yeah. [N] And we do look at birds often, so I can't complain about that. [K] I can't complain about the birds because there's so much rancid shit happening. Like more blatant racism in Iowa City that local politicians are using as press ops during the election. [N] Right. [K] Which is upsetting and gross and I don't like that. [N] Right. And these are people who claim to be ‘anti-racist.’ [K] Yeah. And if they don't, I guess, I don't know, like, what's the alternative? You just admit to being racist? We'll see. Maybe. Maybe they would. I don't know. These are also people who are not responding to constituents' concerns well, if at all. They don't vote like they're taking what constituents say into account. I, for instance, have been reaching out to Jon Green repeatedly asking about plans to address the blatant racism of the Johnson County Jail if he's in support of building a giant new jail. I say giant… If you want the numbers I’ve said them before, I'll say them again. 120 to start, with… shelled out walls and a ceiling of a building to fit 140, and on a piece of land big enough for 240 at some undetermined date in the future. So you can decide exactly which of those numbers are important to you. But those are the facts that we have from the county. And half of the cost, roughly—I'm no math guy—is specifically for the sheriff's office and things for the sheriff, not for the actual jail. So don't mistake the high price tag for loads and loads of amenities for the people incarcerated in the facility. That was a bit of a tangent. All that to say, we're going to build a new facility. We are going to fill it with black people because we fill the current facility with black people and more beds… *vehicle noise* [K] That was a fun interlude. I like keeping in the background noise because it's real, right? Anyway, more beds means more space to incarcerate more black people than we already do, which is already a disproportionately high rate, and nobody even has the care to think up a shitty response to my inquiries about how the county plans to address that. Which means, as we all knew, the county is not doing anything and does not care to. [N] Yes. Right. Well, and you know, this kind of was something I wanted to talk about that I think kind of relates to all these things, which is that Jon Green not responding to your texts is him prioritizing feeling good about himself, being comfortable. Like, you know what I'm saying? That is this thing that white people do all the time, which is to prioritize our own comfort instead of doing the right thing, or being anti-racist or standing in our values and morals and being principled about things. [K] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [N] So, they're all spineless because they want to pat themselves on the back and feel good. [K] Yeah. And we know they want to do this because they do it all the time, right? Like we're not just pulling this out of nowhere. I initially approached John Green about racism in Iowa City after our neighborhood, and I think a neighborhood or two also nearby, got white supremacist propaganda dropped off in the neighborhood. And, someone posted it online. There was some news coverage about the incident, and Jon Green was posting on Facebook about how Iowa City doesn't tolerate racism. He wasn't the only one. A lot of local politicians did it. Our black mayor, Bruce Teague did it. But, I specifically approached Jon Green about it because it is within the context of this jail scenario, and it is incredibly apparent right now if you've been paying attention—which is like, a luxury to have the time and energy to be able to do that, because it's intentionally confusing and they obfuscate the information all the time, and anyway, there are so many limitations to participating in local government as just a person who lives here—but he's voting one way in these meetings, which is to support this jail, and then publicly saying that he's against racism. [N] Right! Or saying “Fuck ICE” or saying… [K] Yeah, he said “Fuck ICE” at an Escucha Mi Voz press conference. And that got a lot of news attention. Like, that was a hook. People love to see it. [N] Not lowering the flag for Charlie Kirk. [K] Meanwhile, it's literally early voting for the June 2 primary. Like, we're in the middle of election season. And so we have to look at these people's behavior also under the scope of they're trying to get elected. Right. That's obvious. But Iowa City is a very liberal place. They are trying to run very liberal campaigns, and they are voting in ways that are actually like, a lot more in alignment with the state and federal government than we would like to think our local governments are. [N] Yeah, and that's because liberals are more aligned with the state and local government and the national government than they would like to believe that they are. [K] Yeah. [N] That's why. It's because they all are like, no, I'm a fucking Democrat. I'm fucking liberal. I'm fucking progressive. And they're like… but they believe it because they are. That is literally what those words mean now. That is what those words mean now. And that is not necessarily… does not mean that when they say fancy organizing fucking catchphrases or fucking bullshit quotes about action and all that stuff… Like, they aren't actually doing that, though. [K] It is an egregious, heart wrenching, palpable lack of action that happens at every Board of Supervisors meeting. I can only imagine what the closed meetings are like. It's just… I mean, they talked for 90 minutes about bond language and maybe didn't even fill in a number at the end of it. It's still unclear. [N] Yeah, it's just so unclear. [K] And the bond language has an actual due date legally imposed from the state government. [N] Yeah, they're fucking crazy. But just to go back to talking about comfort. [K] Yeah. [N] It's like. I was recently reminded of this because I saw a post online that was behaviors of white supremacy or whatever, you know. [K] Love an infographic. [N] Like an infographic like that, which is, I mean, I kind of roll my eyes at that only because that is what the left, meaning liberals and Democrats see as doing the work, right? Like, oh, I can repost this infographic about white supremacy, and that means I'm not a white supremacist. [K] But then they do white supremacist shit in their interpersonal relationships. [N] But then they do white supremacist shit. Yes, correct. Exactly. [K] And it happens all the time. You don't… like, if you're a white person, you've probably been the person who let it slide. [N] Yeah. Oh yeah. [K] Like, you definitely have. I'll just say that. [N] Yeah. 100 percent. [K] So you need to start unpacking that right now. [N] Yeah. [K] And then change your behavior moving forward so that you're not that person and you can call it out when it happens. Because it happens all the time and you don't need to know someone personally to know that. One thing I love about the internet is that you can find people's experiences who aren't necessarily around you, and you can learn something from someone from afar who is like, consenting to teach you something. Like, take that as a gift that a black person is posting this information online, publicly for you to learn because god knows those comments can get fucking insane. Like, putting yourself out there? That's a gift. Okay? And just take in experiences that aren't yours. Because basically every black person has an experience if they've had white people in their life where the white people inevitably let them down in a big way. [N] Yeah. Absolutely. So back on track, I saw this post. [K] I'm sorry. [N] You know, reminding me of these behaviors and tenants and or whatever you want to call them, I don't know. Um… of white supremacy. And one of them is like, a right to comfort. We… [K] We live in a system designed to prioritize our comfort so that we will uphold the system. If we are comfortable enough in the system. I mean, it's a bad system. It hurts white people, too. There are many facets of the systems that we live under that are harmful for like, everything that is alive. [N] Yeah. [K] Everything that has ever existed. [N] Right. [K] But… Fuck I lost… What was I saying? [N] That the system is designed so that we are comfortable enough, that we don't…. [K] Want to rock the boat or upend our position in the system, because then we would be treated worse. And that's no fun, is it? Well, guess what everyone else has to deal with all the time. Living in a system that is not prioritized for their comfort. This is true of many people. But especially in a country built on racial capitalism, exploitation of black people's labor, lives, autonomy in every way. Like, that's always going to be the case until we… fucking deal with it in a way that is genuinely transformative and restorative and black led. [N] Yeah. I also think that we need to like… just force ourselves to be uncomfortable and understand the difference between being uncomfortable and being unsafe because those things are so conflated all the time now. Like, I'm… Being uncomfortable makes me feel like I'm somehow unsafe but that's not necessarily true and we need to be willing to let ourselves be uncomfortable for the sake of prioritizing someone else or doing the right thing. [K] Absolutely. There is a bird just distracting the hell out of me up there. There are times when safety and discomfort do go hand in hand. Absolutely there are. Oftentimes that's true for black people. Like, being uncomfortable means that you've been put in a position where you are the, potentially the only black person in that space. And everyone else could react in any number of ways that could bring you real physical, mental, emotional harm. And that's a real threat, like all the time. And, especially with the rise of this American political moment that is very heavily built upon white supremacist rhetoric. It's always been true here and this… we are in a time where it's very open, again, in ways that it hasn't necessarily been in the very recent past. [N] Yeah. Absolutely. But I want to highlight that that's rarely true for white people. [K] Yes. Yes. [N] Like, when you're walking down the street that is not true for you. When you are existing in society, that is not… when you are uncomfortable by something, that is not necessarily and often going to be the same as being unsafe in a situation. The… person who calls the cops on black people just being in community downtown on the ped mall is like, ‘oh, I'm so uncomfortable right now, there's loud music and I'm trying to work.’ So they result to being like, ‘oh, I need to call the cops, because that's really going to make my life and everyone's life safer and better.’ [K] Well, it's the default. Yeah. Like, nobody knows what else to do. And so many people… My instinct was to say over-apply it. That's a misnomer because I don't think that police should ever be a strategy for dealing with any conflict ever. I think police shouldn't exist. But when there is something that ranges from a genuine harmful conflict to a white person's discomfort, it doesn't really matter. Cops is the go to answer. [N] Yeah. [K] For basically everyone. [N] Yeah. And, I'm not even saying—again I wouldn't even do anything. I'd be just vibing with the music, right? But if anything… [K] Would’ve just walked back to my office. [N] Why didn't you just walk down or go outside and say something to the person who is there? [K] I don't think you need to do that either. Honestly. Headphones exist. [N] So true. [K] Like, come on. [N] Yeah. [K] What? Your like, fake email job? I don't know what people who have offices downtown do. I don't, I'm sorry. I'm sure you do very important work, but like, [N] I mean like, the Bread Garden. [K] Get your paycheck. Please, Bread Garden is so loud inside you can't hear. They were on, like, the.. right where the ped mall meets Washington [N] Revival. [K] Revival, also far away. What else is there? Hands Jewelers. [N] Herteen and Stocker. [K] I should stop making accusations about which business called the cops. [N] Herteen and Stocker. [K] Because we don't know. But the point is… People are trying to get work done and collect a paycheck. And if the work itself is kind of not the work that we really should be digging into right now, I don't know. [N] Yeah, I agree. [K] People who really value that work… [N] Capitalism… [K] Maybe, and yeah, really are attached to the racial capitalism in America, obviously have a vested interest in upholding white supremacy. [N] Yeah. Which is the default for all white people. [K] Yes. [N] That is the default for all white people. You have to consciously make an effort to not do that and change the way that you think and walk through the world. Like, that is something you have to do to not uphold that. [K] And as we said before, it's like a 24/7 mental work thing because you… I mean, however old you are, it's that many years of white supremacist propaganda to unpack, and it's easier to brush it off the further along you get and not succumb to those things. But, I mean, you're digging yourself out of a very deep hole. It's a lot of work. And it's okay that it's hard. Maybe like, lean on other anti-racist white people, and cultivate relationships with white people that are anti-racist so that you can both hold each other accountable. [N] Yeah. [K] And just listen to black people in your life about their experience with racism. Sometimes just, “That fucking sucks. That's racist as hell,” goes a long way. And just remember that local politics? Built on a white supremacist system. It's never not going to be white supremacist in its current form. I don't know, I think to me, governance in its truest form is just how people organize themselves. Like, there are a lot of other ways to govern ourselves. And I don't think we're going to get anything that's not white supremacist until we strip it down entirely and replace it with something completely new that we've built. [N] Yeah. [K] On anti-racist principles from the beginning. [N] Yeah. Because the core of the inception of this place and this governance is white supremacy. Genocidal white supremacy. That still exists today in like… [K] Absolutely it does. In everything that the United States of America does here and abroad. [N] And abroad, globally. It's like, fucking, I mean, it's… Yeah, it's just terrible. [K] And to be anti-racist is to be that every day. So if you want to say that you are, do it. And I personally think everyone should want to say that they are, because if not, womp womp, you're a racist. [N] Well, yeah. I think most people though, like… I think that the problem is that most people would say that they are anti-racist. I don't think people have a problem saying that. A lot of Democrats especially, and liberals and most of the people that… [K] They take it to mean, against racism in this slogany, nothing way. [N] Yeah, that or they truly don't… A lot of people are like, yes, I am this thing, I do that thing and do not either understand or are not willing to deprioritize themselves or their own comfort to actually do the work every single day. It's, you know, constant effort. And some people just don't do that for whatever reason it is. I can't... I'm not saying that that's malicious or always even something that that person is thinking about. But that happens so often that the only people that are going to probably say that they are… *plane noise* [N] People who would never say that they are anti-racist are would probably be fine being called a white supremacist or a Nazi. Right? Like that's… so we're dealing with people who tout certain ideologies and use all the “right language” because it's been thrown all over the internet. I mean, people can find it anywhere. And they'll be like, oh, yeahm that's that's who I am, or that's who I want to be. Or, you know, deep down that's what I believe in. But doing the actual work every single day, all the time, 24/7 is not something that they have grasped or in some cases are not willing to actually do. And, that makes navigating these spaces, these electoral spaces, in an anti-racist, non white supremacist way so difficult because of that. Because so many of the people are like, well, no, I am doing that, though. And I'm like, no, you're not. And that's okay if that's where you're at, [K] But that can't be where you stay. [N] You have to be honest about the work that is necessary to get to the place where we're not doing that. [K] Yeah, maybe. Maybe we're not selling this well enough. Maybe I have to put my capitalist hat on and try and sell this a little better. That was a joke. But, I think it is work every day in that living is work every day. [N] Yeah, true. [K] It's a lifestyle change. That's, you know, what your behaviors are. The accumulation of your behaviors becomes your lifestyle. And you can change that. And you can start changing it today and you can always continue changing it. And once it becomes your lifestyle, it feels a little bit less like work. [N] Yeah, absolutely. [K] It's why our current lifestyle… it feels harder than our current lifestyle. And there's a transition period that maybe you could say is harder. But I really think on the other side it's not any more work. I mean, it is more work, but it's not any more taxing than living under capitalism. [N] Yeah. [K] Racial capitalism. Like, climate disaster. [N] Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, I think that's a great metaphor. I mean, quite literally living is work. Like, even if capitalism is gone, that does not mean that we don't have to put work in to sustain life. We're just going to actually do that work and benefit from it and not line the pockets of billionaires. [K] Yeah. I mean, that's why labor organizing is so important. [N] And also racist sometimes. So… a lot of the time so so… [K] No, I know. What I'm saying is that, again, because governing ourselves a different way means making decisions about how we orient our labor towards mutual goals that support us and everything that we're in relationship with. So like, labor organizing is so important. Unions under capitalism fight for better working conditions under capitalism. Which is important and cannot be the end of our labor organizing. [N] True. I feel like this second episode has gone on a roller coaster ride. This has been crazy. [K] I feel like that's partially my fault. I’m sorry. [N] I've been all over the place as I'm watching the birds and trying to maintain, like, what this episode is even about. Love that. It took me on a ride. [K] But these things are all interconnected, you know? [N] This is true. [K] We can try and stay on a path, and sometimes the path takes us on a connected little journey. [N] Yeah. [K] And we come back in the end. You know, the important theme is white supremacy culture is prevalent in Iowa City and being a blue dot doesn't change that. And, we need to be real about the anti-racism work that needs to happen here on every level. [N] And I personally think that we should take back these public spaces, play music as loud as you want. Have fun, and the city should change their rules and regulations to accommodate the needs of the community. [K] Yeah. If only. For real. [N] Obviously people in our community want to be able to play music downtown on the ped mall and have a good time and not have to get a stupid fucking permit from their fucking white supremacist, governmental, genocidal, colonial fucking system. So maybe the city should step the fuck up and change and get with the fucking program, because that's what the community is clearly asking for. [K] I want to see a bunch of white people get together, unpermitted, on that ped mall, and see if the cops show up. And then… [N] Okay, I was like, I don't know if I do, but okay. Yeah, fine. [K] Well, I'm not gonna encourage people who can only do it so many times before the cops will probably arrest them to do it. Do it if you want. I can't like… I got no business saying what you do or don't do. But if there were enough anti-racist white people to just be there and be a genuine buffer between the cops… because I was genuinely the only white person who stopped in that scenario. [N] Yeah. [K] That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't think only white people should take over the ped mall. That's fucked up. [N] Yeah, yeah. I was just also thinking like, ew, I would get secondhand embarrassment looking at people like, a fucking group of white people, just… [K] White flashmob against racism. [N] Dancing downtown and just, I don't know. Anyway. [K] What I mean is anti-racist white people offering community defense is something that would be really cool to see. That's what I'm saying. [N] Agreed. I agree with that. And I just personally think that our city should just respond to the needs of the community and just let people have fun on the ped mall. [K] Yeah, yeah. I mean, what other way of governance should there be? Now, I'm just… Okay, this episode is gonna need some editing because I've got just another thought to plug in here and I'm not going to expand on it. It doesn't have to be part of the episode. But, alcoholism though. Because I'm just thinking about the ped mall shooting and the argument that people are going to have against the form of governance that is just letting people have fun in public spaces. And I just think we need to really address alcohol culture. And why is the only fun that people can have in public spaces in this town being really drunk while the cops are patrolling? [N] No. Yeah. [K] Anyway, that's just something to dig into, something to chew on. [N] I personally do not think that's fun, but that's just me. [K] No, I don't either. I'm just saying we've got a lot of reorienting of what can and should be fun. But the thing is that's not… Like, the cops don't bust every person who's loud on the ped mall at night because they're supporting the business of the bars. The tables are turned, right? So like, that's why we are okay with that one and not black people providing free community engagement on the ped mall during daylight, during business hours. [N] And that's… Wow. You just summed that up perfectly. [K] Thanks. [N] You just summed that up perfectly though. That is so true. People are so loud downtown on the weekend, just on the ped mall, just having a good time screaming. I mean, singing, the music is loud, that is part of… [K] Cops arrest some of them. And they leave a lot of white, publicly intoxicated people alone. [N] Yeah, I mean, the majority of people are probably, I guess, legally under the definition of publicly intoxicated, and they do not get in trouble or arrested. [K] Yeah, but we're really going to enforce the “you need a permit to use the ped mall” thing. [N] Exactly. [K] Because if they got a permit, the business has to deal with the music anyway. [N] Yeah. I mean, there would be no question about that. So it's not really… Yeah. Anyway. [K] Businesses accommodate people with permits on the ped mall all the time. [N] Yeah. But they would never give you a permit to play music downtown on the ped mall whenever you want to, you know? It'd be a specific time and it would have to be in their specific way that they make people do that. [K] I don't know, I've never applied. [N] Me either, so I have no idea, but I, I can only assume… [K] I’m sure they discriminate because there's so many biases ingrained in the system. Like, you don't have to be consciously doing it to discriminate through your application process. [N] Yes, exactly… I don't really have much else to say right now. [K] Yeah, we'll call it. The birds demand my attention, so… [N] I know, I keep watching the birds. [K] I'm gonna give them some love. So anyway, peace, love, anarchy. Don't build this new jail. [N] Fuck prisons.